Samurai
Asked: 2020-09-02T00:12:42+10:00 In:

When he enrols in a strict prep school, a rebellious teen recruits a geek to help him graduate, which makes him a target for the geek’s bullies.

Strong intention: to graduate.
Formidable obstacle: bullies. strict prep school.

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    16 Reviews

    1. dpg

      dpg

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      thedarkhorse,

      I totally agree with you that Hollyweird players get to play by different rules when it comes to loglines (and a lot of other things).

      As I’ve said many times before, I believe that aspiring writers with no industry network or representation (aka: wannabes) would do well to concurrently write two loglines for every script:

      1] A plotting logline that conforms to the industry standard guidelines Karel Segers discusses under the “Formula” topic at the top of the web page.

      2] A marketing logline that focuses on the sizzle, the feature of the story that will hook Hollyweird players interest, make them want to read the script.

      I’ve read enough of your reviews to sense you have a good grasp of plotting. The plot for the premise in this logline (and its variants) is not my major issue.

      My major issue is I don’t see a compelling hook. And, IMHO, a script that doesn’t have a strong hook is probably DOA. That it is perfectly plotted won’t save it from the reject pile.

      Why?

      Because no Hollywood player will read it to find how how perfectly plotted it is.

      Why?

      Because the logline doesn’t have the je ne sais quoi that will grab their attention, stimulate their imagination, make them want to read the script. I don’t see a unique twist, a novel approach that sets it apart from the 10,0001 other loglines about a teenager struggling in school. Okay, 1,0001 other loglines.

      Gotta have hook. What is there about this script you want to write that will hook the attention of Hollywood players?

      Or, looking at it this way, if you were ghost writing for Scheherazade (I assume you are familiar with her predicament) would you give her this story to tell the Persian king the night after he marries her? Would you be confident it would so entertain, so enchant the king that he won’t follow through with his intention to have her decapitated after the next morning?

      Would you stake her life on this story?

      Would you stake your own?

      In a very real sense your life is already at stake with this story. Okay, not all of it, but part of it. You may have to invest weeks, months of your precious time, your one and only life to write the script. Is this story worth those stakes?

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      • thedarkhorse

        thedarkhorse

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        I’m giving this one a shot. If it goes nowhere – it’s practice. It’s experience.

        Now – bear in mind, I do agree with everything that you’re saying. However – at the same time, one must always be mindful that…

        Writing the “perfect” logline is unattainable. Trying to come up with the perfect logline is also – to some extent, wasteful. Trying to please everyone – impossible. It is in essence – writing for the market. A market that you can’t predict.

        And even if you do run it through an algorithm of some kind and hit your mark. There’s a good chance it will be bloodless – and you won’t be happy doing it.
        That’s why they say – “calculate less” and “don’t write for the market”.

        And even when you do come up with the “perfect” hook – there’s no real guarantee. Nobody knows anything – remember? What they want is unpredictable. A hook certainly helps as it gets passed around. Same time – low concept isn’t exactly impossible.

        I recently queried with something that has a strong hook and the guy said “we’ve seen it before” and “not high concept”. (I honestly don’t think this guy knew what he was talking about but that might just be a defense mechanism. We must remember the industry is very subjective afterall.)

        Very honestly – I think the only way to win is do some kind of tightrope walk between “being calculating” and to “calculate less”. To be mindful of the business side but to also remember that “nobody knows anything”. (I have been at opposite sides of this spectrum and I can’t help but think you have to find a happy middle ground between both.)

        Lastly – if you write something you enjoy, and it doesn’t go anywhere – at least it wasn’t a soulless experience. At least you can stand behind it.

        So…

        In conclusion – a subjective need can be used as a goal if the hook is strong enough. (I’m thinking that’s perhaps the only time you could consider it safe to use a subjective need in a logline.)

        As for this script – I’m pushing forward with a first draft. As the odds are against each thing – I’m trying to generate as much material as possible. (As opposed to doing logline after logline. I think it’s important to write, write, write. Practice. Practice. Practice.) I mean imagine if you have a great logline/concept/hook but your writing sucks. Imagine spending months and months trying to come up with that perfect logline/concept and you write the script – and it goes nowhere. You could’ve got more done in that time.

        I imagine I’ll post a new marketing logline in a couple of weeks – see if it resonates with people and if I need to tart it up.

        Thank you for your thoughts.

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    2. dpg

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      As usual, you make some good points, raise some interesting examples. There is a lot to discuss about the titles you gave, more than be profitably stated in one post.

      How deep down this rabbit hole do you want to go? (And may I interest you in swallowing a red pill? 🙂

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      • thedarkhorse

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        Well listen…

        To play devil’s advocate here – a lot of the films I just suggested were by Hollywood players. None of which had to pitch or query with a logline. Imagine Joe Nobody pitching HER or FORREST GUMP.

        (I have a theory that if Joe Nobody wrote and then pitched THE SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION it wouldn’t get made. And imagine, if Joe Nobody had to tart it up to make it more marketable when really it’s fine how it is.)

        Imagine querying with FIGHT CLUB – the protagonist is passive and it doesn’t know what it is – a black comedy, drama, thriller (I’ve seen it marketed as all of those in TV guides.)
        As for your OBJECTIVE GOAL in a logline. It’s a rule. Rules are what make art beautiful. Without rules – it’s just fingerpainting. I think I’m sticking to the theory that a subjective need can be used as a goal if there’s a strong hook. However – we both know a strong hook is perhaps the hardest thing to get right – so there’s nothing wrong with sticking to what’s safe and what works…

        The thrilling objective goal.

        Back to swinging for my side…

        I just don’t think an objective action goal is a hard, fast rule. * That’s my main argument here. * Or at least there’s always exceptions to every rule.

        I mean I use the objective goal too as it’s safe and strengthens a logline – but at the same time – I do like to colour outside the lines and experiment. Not protagonist should “want the money”, “want to get to LA”, etc. All great action tracks but it can be quite limiting. That “want” or “intention” should be anything – as long as it’s strong and specific and urgent. (I mean you still want the audience to sit up in there seats.)

        I read Vogler recently – the best part was “Form follows function. The needs of a story dictates its structure”. It’s abit like with STC – that book will help you to write but I think you’ll be less creative for doing so. There’s nothing wrong with colouring outside of the lines every so often. That is how we grow and get better and discover things – by experimenting. By taking chances.

        I believe the subjective need smuggled in with the objective goal is perhaps where we’ll meet halfway here.

        Lastly – what book is your ACTION/EXTERNAL GOAL theory from? I’ve only encountered it in DAVID TROTTIER. He talks of action goal/emotion goal or outside story/inside story. However – there’s always variations. I was thinking about this the other day, BACK TO THE FUTURE probably has the best super-objective of all time – – to get back to the future he has to do tons and tons of things. Each one an obstacle. What can go wrong – goes wrong. That’s why it’s so damn entertaining.

        Trottier suggests it’s two action goals (get back to the future, and get his parents together) which I don’t quite agree with. I think it’s that one super-objective – followed by one obstacle/objective after another. “Get his parents together”, “Convince the doc he’s from the future”, “Play Johnny B Good”, etc. It’s all for that super-objective – “Get back to the future”.

        Anyways – pleasure debating this with you. I always learn something new.

        Your turn…

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    3. dpg

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      Beg to differ on subjective need in a logline, Can you give me an example of a critically acclaimed and/or successful movie that can be pitched only in terms of an invisible, internal need without a clue as to the *visible*, external action?

      “Wants the girl/boy” is an objective goal driven by subjective needs. It promises to deliver a number of visual action scenes about a relationship– the meet cute, the first kiss, the breakup, the reconciliation, etc. It implies a visual last scene: either we *see* them on screen together as a happy couple. Or not.

      “Wants to prove himself” is subjective, interior, hence invisible. It leaves a logline reader clueless as to the external *visual* action by which the character struggles to realize the invisible interior goal.

      IMHO

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    4. dpg

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      thedarkhorse,

      I’ll give you points for persistence. This seems to be a story you not only want to tell, but that you MUST tell.

      Have you considered making the geek a girl? Out of desperation, he swallows his misplaced sense of pride to have her tutor him. She’s only in it for the money — she loathes about him. He needs the grades; she needs the money.

      fwiw

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      • thedarkhorse

        thedarkhorse

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        DPG –

        Regarding persistence – as a writer yourself, you understand — one person’s opinion should never sway you.

        TBH – I’ve already done an outline using a past logline. All the loglines afterwards seem to be poking at it from different angles and trying to pinpoint the conflict. The conflict is my clothesline. The driveshaft of a story. (I still believe “must graduate” and “strict school” is enough conflict and I shouldn’t have to keep tarting it up. It kind of makes me think – if you asked five people to do the logline for the KARATE KID you’d end up with five different loglines. Each pressing in on something different.)

        Anyways – I haven’t changed the story or the plot. The only thing that’s really changing is the logline and the wording of it. At this point – I’m very, very tempted to start that first draft and then do a marketing logline later. (A risky move as I believe that you must get the design exactly correct so later on you’re not relying on magical fairies to help you when you can’t sell the damn thing. Same time – we both know the logline is different after you’ve finished a first draft. You always end up with something a bit different – which makes me wonder whether I’ll discover something. Which to some extent – is relying on those magical fairies.)

        Also, just want to clear something up, you said in an earlier comment – that a logline must be about objective goals, not subjective needs.

        We both know that’s not a hard and fast rule. You can use a subjective need as the main goal as long as the logline has a hook/or concept is unique. (This is something you taught me earlier this year.) “Wants the girl/boy” or “wants to prove himself” or whatever – is still acceptable for a logline. Not always. But it can happen.

        Thank you for your notes.

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